TF2 Your opinion of hacking or not hacking?!??

[Cats]

I think that we will never know if Wew is hacking or not and it's hard to tell if he should be banned or not.

 

[ΩhiteΣtripeʐ]

http://steamcommunity.com/groups/needyouropinions

Just unban wew it is to hard to say imo to call him a hacker.

 

[Perish ♪]

Even with being able to see around corners with the taunt, it is no where near advantageous as the pov exploit. Taunting and looking around corners gives you a visual of enemies, but does not allow you to line your aim up with the target before going around the corner unless they are literally standing still for the entire duration of your exploit, and then movement out of cover, aim adjust, and firing.

Of course the POV exploit is much more advantageous than the taunt exploit. But remember the context of that conversation: You explained that hacking and exploiting were both forms of cheating. I insisted that it is important to differentiate forms of unfairness because the thread questions if he was hacking- to which I say he was not. He was only exploiting.

The taunt exploit example was merely there to support the idea that not all exploits are hacks. I already explained my point:

My point is that while I don't advocate the use of such exploits, I do not believe he is hacking. That's what the thread questions. And I say that I don't believe he is. I believe the whole point of all these investigation is to determine whether or not he is guilty.

Where is Case 5 and 6?
Case 5: He was rightfully banned because he was hacking and exploiting.
Case 6: He was wrongfully banned because he was NOT hacking, and exploitation does not go against the rules.

I can see you strongly believe he was not hacking, buts lets not leave out these two very important cases. In the end, we cannot know with 100% accuracy as to whether he was hacking or not. What we can do, is justify our claims in such a manner that can lead us to believe whether he was guilty of hacking or not. This instance of not knowing 100% whether its true or not really only happens with wallhacks and cautious cheaters. Aimbots are irrefutably visible to an observer.

Arguments are futile when both parties have differing definitions of terminology. For example: If one defines God as a supernatural entity beyond our perspective of whom is responsible for keeping peace on earth, that one might be inclined to say that God doesn’t exist. If another person defines God as something worshipped through a faith based system, then that person might be inclined to take a dollar note out of his wallet and say “I have a piece of God right here.”

This is what happens in most arguments, parties will often argue and their standpoint will be correct according to their definitions. And so I will restate my standpoint: I believe he is solely using the POV exploit and I do not consider it as hacking. Hacking is a form of exploit, but not all exploits are to be considered a hack. With this previous statement: Case 5 is redundant. Case 6 is redundant because it is the same thing as Case 4.

I'd really love to hear from those who don't think he is hacking. Could you perhaps invite them to thread?

I could try. But really you could just look at his steamgroup http://steamcommunity.com/groups/needyouropinions

Think of it like the laws that are set down in countries around the world. Laws tend to be made after a person has demonstrated the need for a law to be created. Jailing them for something they did before the law was created (because of them) does seem rather wrong and carries a bit of injustice.

But what brought about the law prohibiting murder in our societies? I can't tell you for certain that it was made before or after the first human being slayed another, but why did the need for the law come about? Would it be right to let the person who murdered another get away with that awful deed?

Comparing real life issues and game exploiting does seem a bit stretched, but there are players, like I, who detest the use of exploits for advantageous use in competitive or practice environments. Encroaching on that territory tends to piss me off, and I'm sure it does others.

Early human tribal societies did not think of murder as something unlawful. They knew to fend off other tribes and protect their own. But what was apparent is that the death of loved ones brings sadness and this root from nature. Furthermore, it was acknowledged that losing people in their tribe was counter-productive to their ideals. On the other hand, killing members of hostile tribes were seen as something productive to their ideals. At least, if politics weren't an option.

In the case of this video game: unfairness is counter-productive to the majority of the gamers ideals. I explained this analogy:

The question seems simple but let's go over some technicalities and ethics. If no rules against exploits were explicitly stated prior to the ban one might say that it was injustice and if there were some explicit rules against exploits such culprits might have avoided partaking in incriminating actions…

On the other hand: We have the shared ideals of the majority of the tf2 sniping community. Not everyone has the same preference but there are always ideals that the majority has in common. This most probably includes fair gameplay. What does most, if not all, SvS servers have in common? They are all trying to provide the ideal sniping environment. And this environment most probably advocates fair game play… To the matter at hand: Even though exploits that ruin the gameplay for many due to unfairness are not explcitly disallowed, they are often implicitly understood by the majority as wrong.

What really all this boils down to is technicality versus ethics.

I can't say much about this other than, What is it do you expect to be doing in a Sniper Server? If you decide to play spy after seeing it is available in a sniper only server, anyone with the capacity for logical thought processes would see there is a potential issue here...

This is the mentality of (almost) everyone who knows about its purpose. But from my experience, new people never do automatically jump to that conclusion that spies were supposed to use the ambassador only. And I wouldn’t call them idiots just for that. The first thought that goes through their head and they are often vocal about it too: “Why are there spies in a sniping server?” And they will automatically conclude that it was a bad move on the admin’s part (especially when it was only available in the only map with a bridge). It (usually) only becomes clear to them after someone explains that spies are intended to use the Ambassador. You can’t blame them for having “the intention of being different than what the server implies. It's not so much that they are unknowingly breaking a rule but stretching their freedoms because lack of said rules.“ Because even Snipezilla used to have a payload map that allows medics. As far as they know, it could be a feature of an event.

Here is what I find wrong with the argument stating rules must be explicitly stated to ensure a fair justification of kicking/banning players. From what you've told me, it was clear these two people had intended to spam the chat from the minute the joined the server...

In that scenario: No. They were seriously trying to play for a long time. And then someone was being stupid on the mic (Something that snipezilla tolerates) and then people started asking another if they were “mad”. This happens every day and is something that snipezilla officially tolerates because it is harmless teasing. But then they decided it was okay to spam stupid binds, and I was not okay with the chat flooding.

As I was saying above, its literally implied, and evident through example when you a join a sniper only server. I know I can't entirely rule out the possibility of someone seriously being that dull (excuse my rude wording) and doing things on a whim without a care in the world until they are legitimately warned they are infringing upon set rules, or understood rules.

I've always understood that when you join a server with a different gamemode than the classic modes provided with team fortress 2, you would take time to investigate the nature of the mode, and its mechanics.

I know. And I had already explained both standpoints in that post.

…What really all this boils down to is technicality versus ethics.

I wrote both standpoints because no matter what you, I, or anyone says: it is technicality versus ethics. And both are correct. This can go on endlessly to no verdict.

This trial is unfair for him if he was banned for hacking. If he was truly hacking then there is a chance he will admit it and then we can know for certain. If he wasn’t then he could only plead not-guilty just as he has been doing all along and we can keep claiming we cannot know for sure. This is unfair because it is a ‘reverse onus’- guilty until proven innocent.

The hacking accusation continues to be open for debate. This is why I would prefer to shift the trial to whether or not we should allow or disallow the POV exploit. That way we can work with an irrefutable fact.
And who gets to be the judge? Easy: The owners of the servers get veto power and may choose whether or not to allow or disallow the POV exploit. If they wish for other’s input then we can easily just hold a poll- the jury can make a vote.

 

[J.D. wHO DAt]

I just wanna hear that Wew won't exploit anymore or hack. He/she will deny hacking but won't deny exploiting, plus he/she does openly exploit. I want to get everything on the table before any action is taken.

History of VAC ban. The video is sketchy as f***.

What Wew has going for him/her is that he/she is a dam good player. The question is that due to exploits or hacks or both.

In response to other posts I have never banned anyone for wallhacking just obvious aimbotting.

I find all these people backing up Wew is bias also because they are wew's buddies. Why doesn't Wew back up Wew?

Time will tell on what to do.

 

[Perish ♪]

We've seen how good Wew can exploit corners with his POV difference, whose to say he will change his ways after an unban? If his repetitive behaviors are that well built, how the hell could he ever break the habit?

You're talking about this like its a skill! I'm positive everyone in the world can do it, its just a game of odds. And apparently Wew has a "+50% odds in favor" bonus.

In the demo he was not doing particularly astounding. What if it were a demo of someone ‘bodyshoting’ constantly? What if it was of someone constantly ‘second shooting’? Or someone getting ‘luckshots’ with the huntsman? Surely many people would be vocal about their disapproval. And they have been vocal about the unfairness. We do say that using the darwin’s danger shield is not how SvS is meant to be played but at the same time we allow huntsmans and Sydney sleepers. And even with those other unfair methods people could do better than the POV exploit.


Wew has had this reputation for cheap tricks for a long time and regulars know this. I have heard people tell me that he climbed the leaderboards through using the huntsman and/or the POV exploit. And so this sort of thing is not surprising.


It was not uncommon to see Wew at the side of a wall- only showing his shoulders. And people would say “I only see the shoulders- it must be wew”. This is because the POV exploit requires you to be at the edge of a wall for it to be effective. Through many witnesses, including me, we have often seen wew camping the edge of a wall. What does the demo show? He is constantly at the edge of the wall.


The power of actual wall-hacks does not limit you to hugging the walls. If anything, anyone with over 1000 hours on sniper would not need to hug wall edges with a Wall-hack. Why, they could stand on the open and prey on each enemy about to stick their head out one at a time. If they still wish to use walls for cover, they would not be limited to the edge to see enemy positions. From anywhere they would see the enemy. Also, with actual-wall hacks one would not need to resort to the hardscoping method.

You could only make this argument basing the time frames beginning of 11:20. The wireframe visual provided by the console command is meant to give you an idea, and in no way shape or form represent an actual wallhack in action. Most if not all wallhacks enable you to see players well before the rendering distance that this console command has.

And at that point of where the target was beyond rendering distance- he was above the stairs.

I will turn myself at least a full 45 degrees to the left before I've even turned the corner. It's a shame the video did not capture a different lapse, where the player chose the other side, but I can guarantee you if the player had chose the other location, Wew would not have tried to follow up and expose the wallhack.

I’m not sure about that. It is “a shame the video did not capture a different lapse”. But personally, I don’t decide which exit I’m going to pick until I’m at the bottom.

Good example, but this was exactly what I aimed to counter when playing against Lucy. I learned that this player would target you 80% more of the time if you expressed your disinterest with the Sydney Sleeper. Having mentioned something, I found myself constantly getting killed by Lucy before anyone else could get to me.


I did things that would throw off this memorization on Orange specifically. I changed my load out to similar sets that other players were wearing. I literally changed my movement patters, what side of the map I favored, spots I used to snipe from. I did not simply walk out with a new outfit and resume looking up at the towers or around specifically for Lucy. Yet Lucy was able to pick me off as the first target every time.


Sure, if I am wearing near or exactly the same outfit as someone else, you would think a quick glance around the map would reveal two of the same snipers, meaning one must be me, considering my original outfitted sniper has disappeared but that takes more than a few seconds right? If you can scan an entire map with all of the hiding places, and all of the visible outfits, and then make the decision that this slightly different outfitted player is the same one that has been after you for a while, you might as well call yourself master of the sniper and choose a different class to master. The complexities in this are far beyond my willingness to explain :/

You might just be over thinking the situation. There have been times where I was trying to watch out for the best player on the enemy team. Shoot a random person, and find out that my target had removed their hat and took note. People think that if they removed their gaudy hat, people would target them less- and its true. Also, perhaps the case is that the person you are imitating is actually more difficult to hit.

 

[cedde]

When I told wew about the anticheat plugin, he was kinda worried; I'm thinking now because of his wallhack. Even if He's a good aimer and ok player, he did cheat.
The video make also lot of sense now; I can recall how many time I've been shot just by popping out from a wall and not only by wew: blaming the lag. Clearly many a$$holes use a wallhack!

 

[Darth Doggy]

This might be late to the party, but all the same, here:
I've watched Wew enough times and would have not easily guessed it, but I've been wrong plenty of times before. It is fully possible for 'high-skilled' players to use minor-adjusting programs and get away with it. Already seen that happen with one of the Snipezilla regulars and it's happened plenty of times before... unfortunately.

But I will agree that this video is sketchy. It shows utterly random shots which seem unlikely without prior knowledge, but it also shows a sense of lag compensation (either because of spectator or Wew).
Anyways, I'll agree with J.D. that Wew should give his or her opinion/say on this. Anybody is going to be biased about this, and it doesn't help that we haven't heard much from Wew on this thread.

Also, I think some of parts of this discussion on this thread have gone very awry lol Guess that happens on most of them =p

 

[J.D. wHO DAt]

Pleading the 5th doesn't help yourself unless you are a CEO.

 

[ẐҽᶍḺȋѻɳ]

When I first saw the video a while back, the shot at 11:20 is what convinced me that wew might be wall hacking. All other shots weren't really enough proof imo. However, after watching the shot again today it seems more and more that this shot could be humanly possible even without random luck.

It is still weird to me that he was pre-aiming at the bottom right but if you look at the attached picture, I paused the video right when he takes the shot. I think the human reaction time for information to go from the eyes to the brain and then to the hand is about 1/10 of a second. I feel like there may be about 1/10th of a second where he could take a legit shot at this 11:20 mark.

I personally think that whether he was hacking or not, he's been banned from Sniper Sanctuary and Snipezilla for over a month now. That's a long time for someone who loves sniping as much as him. I think he should be given a 2nd chance. People are given 2nd chances for much much worse things in this world.

 

[J.D. wHO DAt]

Thanks for input Zex, I also agree with second chances but other things come with a second chance it is not just given away....if that makes any sense .

 

[Mixup]

Exploiting things in TF2 like crouching behind walls and aiming is NOT HACKING.

We all know what HACKS are. Hacks are aimbot,wallhack, etc.. third party programs that are used.

Exploits are things that get patched like how on dustbowl you used to be able to shoot demo grenades through the gate before the round started. Or building sentries beneath or above the map out of view.

 

[Perish ♪]

We should definitely try enabling sv_pure. It couldn't hurt to.
As for second chances, I propose the admins should have a vote at the admins section.
I do like to argue, but to be honest even I have been second guessing from the start.

 

[Mixup]

I have known wew for a while. Couple years back then. He in my mind never hacked. Until recently past couple months i did notice a shift in his game style. And it seemed sketch. But i'm the last person to call hacks unless i have proof and what not. And i believe firmly the wall exploit was just a cover to mask the wall hacking. If not it would have been easily identifiable. I personally don't care if he does or doesn't get banned. As long as it's not aimbot.

 

[J.D. wHO DAt]

1 millisecond is past what any human can do chemically. 1 tenth of a second is past what any one person can do chemically. Average human response is around 2.8 to 3.45 depending on your family background. Shooting anyone at that speed is impractical. If you have reflexes and hand coordination like that you should be playing baseball or a goalie.

Wew wants back in it should be an explanation or an appologie. Too many RESPECTED players have STRONG points.

 

[cedde]

Wew is an excellent sniper, I pretty sure he never use any "help" to aim but wallhack is definitely cheating. His steam account is also 1 or 2 years old, which I always found weird. I'm sure he will find a way to play again on sanctuary. On Sz, it may be more difficult; We really don't like cheaters. Bye bye wew.

 

[w3w.d0pe°e$]

Bye cedde. Funny people.

 

[Magnus]

0:40 definitely don't know how he would have known they had jumped out and on the right already.
3:35 no way he could have known someone dropped down and he tried to aim at them already
3:57 he had no idea someone was on bottom and clearly started aiming at them through the wall
6:18 pre-aim bottom left when he never really does simply because he knows someone is there

I think that's all i need to see. Those are clearly wall hacking situations. And notice he misses almost all his shots. Usually people who only wall hack and not aimbot are using the hack as a clutch in which you sacrifice aim for that.

I'm loling since i saw that video, xD, and yeah mix, but something that is so wrong here is that actually explosive deer has mention the scariest stuff i hear on a while; comparing wew to platinum snipers, lol really, like Powah? Elysium, tseini? even my friends like comanglia, mix? and hundreds of level snipers haha. Even on that video you can see that using a cheat model can't even get you good, so many snipers who are of the best doesn't even play competitive, and just a few sniper who play are awsome and other snipers who are getting up on ranks too, just please messure right that stuff. Grettings :3

 

[ExplosiveDeer]

While it probably isn't the best to use "Platinum Snipers" as a level of measurement, it serves the purpose of example. Its true, some people can be really good at the game and not participate in events that would make them well-known such as the platinum snipers I referenced. Who should I compare with instead? It's difficult to do because of the varying level of skill, hence why I generalized, and narrowed it to competitive, platinum level snipers.

 

[‡ Apex ♥ Roseᴾᴷ]

I think that from the video it is difficult to say...hard to say if its just luck and skill that made some of those crazy shots or a third party program helped. But I think that we do have to take into consideration just how long wew has been sniping...for years, over 100k on his rifle, and mainly plays on svs servers. He's got plenty of skill, ya'll can't deny that. I've been playing with wew ever since I started playing svs, about 8 or 9 months ago, and have never seen any evidence of hacking. Perhaps he started something just recently, I don't know, but why start using wallhacks when you have 70k on a sniper rifle, plenty of svs skill, and #1 on one of the top sniping servers? Doesn't really add up...

I'm not really taking sides on this, but I think that given his longevity on sniping servers and the skill that he's had since I've known him, that we should give him a second chance. Just keep in mind you can spec him using Source TV whenever he is playing-if you see any more evidence of hacks, then ban for good. However, if you think it's more likely than not that he is wallhacking, then keep him banned...

Lastly, on the talk of exploits, exploits aren't anywhere near hacking...every exploit has a counter, just because you don't know it doesn't mean it doesn't exist...it's a part of the game. If you don't like the exploits, fine, then learn the counters...that's what I did. Shout out to wew for teaching me some exploits and their counters

 

[Magnus]

While it probably isn't the best to use "Platinum Snipers" as a level of measurement, it serves the purpose of example. Its true, some people can be really good at the game and not participate in events that would make them well-known such as the platinum snipers I referenced. Who should I compare with instead? It's difficult to do because of the varying level of skill, hence why I generalized, and narrowed it to competitive, platinum level snipers.

Yes dude but you really mess it up there, when pro player on the case of sniper join a sniper server, they usually wrek and get massive points, only a few times on my sniper time i had seen 200 points on snipers 30min matches, and 300 points far lower, but 100-150.. and lower xD gg