Spies for Orange?

[★SatanicSquid★]

Hi!
I was just wondering, why are spies allowed on the only map that they can backstab, and on no other maps?

 

[Perish ♪]

Good Question. I would like to use the amby on other maps as well.

But they can't backstab on orange nobridge =P.

 

[cedde]

I think the spy hitbox and dingaling won't make any sens in maps other than orange ( or with melee)

 

[Sweet Sparkling Jarate]

Well, before the insta-kick on backstabs was implemented, I was told that the Spies were allowed as a sort of equalizer via backstabs.

 

[cedde]

Snipers tend to not look their back, so they get pissed off.

 

[ExplosiveDeer]

I'm very very spy aware as J.D found out the hard way on that one fateful day of Sniper_Orange_XXL.
The idea of backstabbing on a sniper server is however quite silly in my opinion for the reason that it is intended to be a sniper (by my tf2 definition: headshot) server only. To then allow spies to backstab on a server where this pre-determined mindset (headshot only) is acquired simply by look at the server title "SnipeZilla" would be quite aggravating! If you were to allow backstabs, why wouldn't you just allow every other class, because they would do the same job of adding a hindrance to the playing field right? Another thing I'd like to point out is that backstabbing would be 50 times easier on orange than any other map. Everyone on the enemy team is scoping. There are no pyros, scouts, paranoid medics and heavies... You are completely unhindered as a spy with a knife (granted you aren't noticed and promptly jarate/bushwhacka bitchslapped). What I am getting at here is that the Sniper_Orange maps are designed for sniping with the intent to get headshots. Playing any other class would give you a paramount advantage, except as a Spy that can only use the Ambassador. Bottom line: These maps are not intended to make you watch your back, but rather in front of you across the pit.

 

[cedde]

Orange maps are kinda special. You allow 3 spies per team, and it will be 6 spies on orange map like it used to be. At this point it was so messy, we had to disable them until a genius spy came with the idea of only one per team. Since that, coincidence or not, Orange on SnipeZilla is packed. Backstabbing: not so fun, melee with whatever is OK.

 

[J.D. wHO DAt]

1 per map is fine. Too many people that play spy cloak to the other side and just shoot people from the back. Having more than 1 spy doing this at a time would be as annoying if not more annoying than backstabbing.

 

[ΩhiteΣtripeʐ]

How about the person that switches to spy because you are dominating them and then back stabs you even when they know they are going to be kicked. The Suicide Spy.

 

[J.D. wHO DAt]

Stab shield.......Unless you just gotta have that piss jar in the back pocket

 

[Mixup]

I'm assuming the coding used to kick backstabbers only works when it's a successful back stab. So they can just stab the shield once, cloak, and come back.

In my opinion if nobody wants to get rid of the spy completely then we should be doing everything possible to keep it fair play. I know a lot of people who say they won't be back because of the spy.

There's a mod out there to disable certain weapons. Other sniper servers have the smg disabled for instance. Why not just disable the knife then or any spy melee

 

[ΩhiteΣtripeʐ]

Because we're pirates.

 

[ExplosiveDeer]

I'm assuming the coding used to kick backstabbers only works when it's a successful back stab. So they can just stab the shield once, cloak, and come back.

In my opinion if nobody wants to get rid of the spy completely then we should be doing everything possible to keep it fair play. I know a lot of people who say they won't be back because of the spy.

There's a mod out there to disable certain weapons. Other sniper servers have the smg disabled for instance. Why not just disable the knife then or any spy melee

While it could be disabled, its not desire-able to have a missing item in your inventory. Don't get me wrong, it seems like this would be the best solution trumping the aesthetic-related excuse I just gave you. But doesn't it feel like a cop out? I honestly can't give you a proper argument as to why it should stay enabled, but I certainly like

Because we're pirates.

Keep in mind, the knife will only get you kicked if you backstab. It would appear the kick is based on damage output. So you can hack and slash people as you would with your bushwhacka or other shrubbery cutting device.

 

[Mixup]

IMO, this is the wrong environment to be training ambassador headshots. It doesn't translate over to live public servers. There are way more variables involved and different classes have different hitboxes and different speeds. If you're just trying to hit snipers who are either standing still or just strafing back and forth in a fixed rotation, not really going to help overall.

 

[J.D. wHO DAt]

Totally true. But it sure is tough cause it is at least 2-3 shots minimum unless chipped by a sniper before hand.

Other maps just dead ring and stab

 

[ExplosiveDeer]

IMO, this is the wrong environment to be training ambassador headshots. It doesn't translate over to live public servers. There are way more variables involved and different classes have different hitboxes and different speeds. If you're just trying to hit snipers who are either standing still or just strafing back and forth in a fixed rotation, not really going to help overall.

Totally true. But it sure is tough cause it is at least 2-3 shots minimum unless chipped by a sniper before hand.

Other maps just dead ring and stab

There are many ways to play spy, and picking people with headshots is just as reliable as backstabbing, and dead ringing. It really depends on the players style. There are spies who prefer their pistol over knife, and then there are spies who hardly bother to take out their pistol and rely completely on the knife and their ability to stealthily maneuver about your teammates unnoticed. While it may seem silly to have spies in a sniper map, I think this opinion has mostly to do with a biased view of what spies are capable of in public servers. (Not to dis anyone here!)

As J.D stated, one headshot on a full health sniper will not do it the same justice as a sniper rifle headshot. The sniper can still walk away from it. So then comes into play where the spy must finish off their target before they can run and hide. Weather the running enemy is finished off by a bodyshot (more likely and efficient) or a headshot (most efficient, least likely). I think practicing with the ambassador is fair-game, but that's just me!

 

[Mixup]

There are many ways to play spy, and picking people with headshots is just as reliable as backstabbing, and dead ringing. It really depends on the players style. There are spies who prefer their pistol over knife, and then there are spies who hardly bother to take out their pistol and rely completely on the knife and their ability to stealthily maneuver about your teammates unnoticed. While it may seem silly to have spies in a sniper map, I think this opinion has mostly to do with a biased view of what spies are capable of in public servers. (Not to dis anyone here!)

As J.D stated, one headshot on a full health sniper will not do it the same justice as a sniper rifle headshot. The sniper can still walk away from it. So then comes into play where the spy must finish off their target before they can run and hide. Weather the running enemy is finished off by a bodyshot (more likely and efficient) or a headshot (most efficient, least likely). I think practicing with the ambassador is fair-game, but that's just me!

I agree with both of your points. I wasn't trying to say that it's super easy to play as spy and get ambassador shots. Definitely takes skill to be proficient.

Explosive Deer - I actually have dabbled with spy in both comp pugs and public servers using various sets and inventories. Just takes 1 ambassador headshot and 1 body shot to kill a sniper granted he's not wearing items to buff his health. In which case it only takes 2 bodyshots instead of 1. You'll be able to kill a sniper before they can react. The enforcer is just as proficient in that department as well.

While it is true some spies prefer or excel at using different tactics, the best spies know how to utilize all the various techniques very well and use them situationally. Not how like some spies use the cloak and dagger and just sit in 1 spot and wait for easy targets. I think the only preference would be if you like DR or cloaking. Both work very well.

All this talk makes me want to start playing spy again lol. But I have all the australiums for my main classes so I don't like to play anything else at the moment haha

 

[J.D. wHO DAt]

On snipezilla what most people don't account for is the range. Since very few that snipe with ambassador it is 17 damage at range(body), it is not popping you point blank like most spies do from behind, it is a distance shot. Head shot is 102, still leaving 6 health. This is why we say it is a minimum of 2 shots sometimes 3, unless chipped by another sniper and first shot is a headshot.

Mixup is confusing regular spy play with how spy sniping is done on snipezilla, which I believe I have never played against him with spy so it is totally understandable because 95% of others that play spy try to play it like a regular spy, thus backstabbing and getting kicked then shooting point blank at snipers from behind which does not fair well once you get drowned in a minimum of 3 jars of piss.

2 different play styles. Similar to styles of sniping: quickscope and hardscoping

2 different styles for spy: shooting point blank headshot from behind followed by 33 damage body shot or sniping from afar 17 damage body shot, headshot, body shot (order always varies)

Spy is extremely harder to play than sniper and should not be bitched about. I gave solution to people that complain earlier in the post. (This last paragraph is what the thread is originally about. The community is just filling in the holes along the way)

 

[Mixup]

On snipezilla what most people don't account for is the range. Since very few that snipe with ambassador it is 17 damage at range(body), it is not popping you point blank like most spies do from behind, it is a distance shot. Head shot is 102, still leaving 6 health. This is why we say it is a minimum of 2 shots sometimes 3, unless chipped by another sniper and first shot is a headshot.

Mixup is confusing regular spy play with how spy sniping is done on snipezilla, which I believe I have never played against him with spy so it is totally understandable because 95% of others that play spy try to play it like a regular spy, thus backstabbing and getting kicked then shooting point blank at snipers from behind which does not fair well once you get drowned in a minimum of 3 jars of piss.

2 different play styles. Similar to styles of sniping: quickscope and hardscoping

2 different styles for spy: shooting point blank headshot from behind followed by 33 damage body shot or sniping from afar 17 damage body shot, headshot, body shot (order always varies)

Spy is extremely harder to play than sniper and should not be bitched about. I gave solution to people that complain earlier in the post. (This last paragraph is what the thread is originally about. The community is just filling in the holes along the way)

True the farther away ( across the bridge ) is less damage. Ya we haven't played spy VS spy yet on SZ. I'm actually really good at the ambassador. Or at least I was until I stopped. I would have to practice again to be good at it. Although I don't really feel like ruining my KD ratio on the stats haha..

All in all the spy doesn't bother me. It's mostly noobs who play it and I can always hear them uncloak or shoot at me and I turn around and snipe them. I'm always moving around as well so they like to pick easier stationary targets.

Is it possible to restrict spy to just the no bridge map then? Since that's the point of all this?

 

[J.D. wHO DAt]

We could and I understand where you are coming from but I am bias about it cause I love playing with ambassador. Only map I get to do this is orange maps. So pretty much if we did this I would be limited to 1 map . Only map I really see it being a problem is orange 110 cause of distance. Others are much farther.